[Bya]

RENGAAAAAR

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Publié par Scarizard

Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

Here are the changes (Without numbers, as they are subject to change/tuning as always) that we've been testing so far:

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks

Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...5#post39813745

Sur le Bonetooth:

Citation :

Publié par Scarizard

To clarify - i'm still interested in Bonetooth being a stack item that works on kills and assists. As a trophy hunter, it's pretty key to who he is as a character and the reason it was implemented in the first place. My big issue however, is that right now it's purely a snowball item with only one really interesting augment.

I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.

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Publié par Wav3Break

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Of all things, I just wish bonetooth didn't give so much free attack damage. Makes it fairly cost effective even if Rengar isn't stacking too well.

We are looking into the power of Bone Tooth Necklace and we will appropriately scale it back to reflect the cooler game play mechanics we intend to attach to it.

Though there is concern that having this kind of stacking/snowball mechanic on Rengar creates a "feast or famine" play pattern, we intend to make Bone Tooth Necklace an item that really accentuates the predator play style of Rengar and not necessarily something that is core for him to function. That being said we want to make Bone Tooth a very attractive option that most Rengar players will feel good about buying despite being behind or ahead.

Getting kills and assists is inevitable in every game and I hope to make Bone Tooth more attractive by giving it more utility on lesser amounts of stacks that help Rengar execute his play pattern of stalker and predator.

[Gluck]

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Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Wow... Déjà que le sort était un harass assez craqué, ça va vraiment devenir immonde.

[Gokudo]

Evil mashiro : I summon you

[Bya]

En fait toute la discussion est intéressante...

Citation :

Publié par Scarizard

Just updated the OP with the changes that are currently testing. Numbers excluded as they're subject to change.

Tried an iteration where Savagery, in lieu of Attack Speed instead awarded a bonus point of Ferocity to Rengar when he used it on targets below 50% health. I liked how it played out, but wasn't noticeable enough and in most cases it was just 'Rengar is getting more 5 points than usual for doing things he'd do anyways' - i'd like to see some form of this return somewhere on the Bonetooth if at all possible, and we're investigating cool ways to make that happen.

All of his Ferocity Effects not minding what you were previously leveling has made some cool cases in lane where you'll max W/E but still choose Q - whereas on Live it's just 'what is the thing i am leveling? Doublecast that for crazy spike damage' - in response we've upped the damage on these abilities to make them singularly better for their regular use-cases.

W's current iteration is trying something i heard from forumgoers the last time Classick was discussing his changes that also helps him jungle. My vision for Battle Roar if it needs to have a defensive component is to make it less good against every thing and give it a distinct use-case. Currently running with Doran's shield passive for all Physical Damage. This makes him much more susceptible to magic damage and mage CC + Burst combos, but keeps him strong vs those carries he loves to chew on, as well as keeping those jungle mobs honest. I'm not super attached to it, but it's definitely fulfilling my goals as of now.

R's runspeed being upped right now really allows it to be used for strategic set ups, but is probably stronger than a character like this needs at rank 1. While revealing him earlier might sound like a super nerf, in practice it's shown that it's not actually enough to stop people from feeling totally jumped. The VO playing when he ults though has been testing -very- well both as/against and really strikes fear into enemies. What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?

Anyways, i've gotten a lot of good ideas from you guys tonight that i want to think on. I'm not gonna pass out just yet so i'll be around for a bit longer, but my Safari Zone timer's runnin' out

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Publié par Scarizard

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The w is also a bad nerf. Mages don't instadie like adcs. They will just cc him and easily kill him without that mr buff.

You might be right - that's why i'm just testing it for now. It could be Magical Damage Reduction, or not any flat DR at all. Armor/Mr is not only very invisibly powerful, but is universally good against everyone which is why in Rengar's case it's been nerfed pretty heavily. If there's a defensive steroid that functions far better in some situations than others, then it starts to create a set of tradeoffs that offer more tuning points down the line.

Mages cc'ing him and easily killing him in this current iteration is a tradeoff to him soaking up the damage from AD's. Might need to be the other way around - might not need to be defensive at all - but for as long as it's going to be a 'one-use fits all' flat mitigation stat buff, it can't be very powerful. I'd like to continue to explore options to try and give Rengar players a sense of 'that was the perfect time to Battle Roar and i feel appropriately rewarded for using it' instead of 'use this on CD because it doesn't matter what situation i'm in, Armor/MR has it covered'

EDIT: Because i've seen some people mention it - nowhere have i said Rengar is losing his heal. Just that the damage it's dealing (Along with Bola Strike and Savagery) are going to be based off of Rengar's Champion Level, and not by skill rank. I didn't include the heal because we already made that change to it months ago.

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Publié par Scarizard

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Bonetooth Necklace: How about, having it build out of Hunter's Machete?

In one way, that would restrict his game play (unable to rush it in lane). In the other way, it would open him up for a better jungle experience, really playing into his thematic...

...No promises. But this sounds really, really cool.

[Mormuth]

J'aime bien le collier à partir de la machette.

Comme ça Toro arrêtera de me dire que faut rush le collier en jouant rengar top

Par contre ca nerf salement son côté splitpusher là en virant le double buff as qui te permet de démonter les tanks pendant l'actif de la botrk :\

[Toropicana]

Pourquoi le changer en fait?Y'a des mecs qui tentent désespérément de jouer des persos comme Heimer ou Brand et ils changent Rengar qui est parfaitement fine...
Qu'est-ce que ça me gonfle...

[Bya]

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Publié par Toropicana

Pourquoi le changer en fait?Y'a des mecs qui tentent désespérément de jouer des persos comme Heimer ou Brand et ils changent Rengar qui est parfaitement fine...
Qu'est-ce que ça me gonfle...

Parce que suite aux nerfs, les gens ont crié qu'il était up.

Du coup, maintenant, ils veulent le buff en fait.

[Toropicana]

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Publié par Bya

Parce que suite aux nerfs, les gens ont crié qu'il était up.

Du coup, maintenant, ils veulent le buff en fait.

Et bien c'est triste...

[DOG POLICE]

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Publié par Mormuth

J'aime bien le collier à partir de la machette.

Comme ça Toro arrêtera de me dire que faut rush le collier en jouant rengar top

Par contre ca nerf salement son côté splitpusher là en virant le double buff as qui te permet de démonter les tanks pendant l'actif de la botrk :\

Pour jungle aussi c'est pas cool. Enfin faudra voir les chiffres, comme d'hab.

[pyrovoice]

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Publié par Mormuth

Le passif de Fiora est useless ? Oo
C'est pas le meilleur passif mais il permet de trade comme un cochon quand même en early ... (Surtout au lvl 2 d'ailleurs)
Pareil pour celui de Talon, 10% de dégats bonus sur les cibles cc en quoi c'est utile qu'en early ? :x

un passif qui regenere 10 points de vie en 6 secondes ? c'est un troll ton message ?
Non serieux, le passif de fiora est vraiment pas utile, tu te met une quintessence lifesteal et tu régenere plus en un coup qu'avec un passif chargé sur l'adversaire. A la limite si frapper les minion permettait de conserver 4 charges, ou si on pouvait le charger à 4 sur des minions je dit pas, mais la...

[Asurya XIII]

Ah des changements sur Rengar, je vais devoir trouver une autre excuse pour râler ...

Le changement sur l'ulti et le passif sont bons mais je n'aime pas trop le changement sur les autres spells :

Buff stat : parfait c'est le premier truc que j'aurais buff et peut-être le seul d'ailleurs

Q : assez immonde comme nerf, çà risque de kill le core Botrk sur le champion, j'ai un peu peur pour le burst surtout sur la longueur

W : le sort était très bien comme çà, a voir le montant des changements

E : un peu ridicule de venir up le sort qui est déjà bien pénible pour les adversaires en lane

Au final j'ai peur que l'on tende vers un perso frustrant pour tous un peu comme Pantheon : feed facile mais fall of énorme. Surtout qu'on a la un champion ultra monocible.

Au final j'aurais up sa vie et sa regen, changer l'ult de la même façon up la durée du bolas enraged et c'est a peu prêt tout.

A voir pour son item perso par contre, les changements pourraient être funs . Bref on verra les valeurs (surtout des dégâts par level des spells enraged) mais avec un up de bolas je vois mal comment ils vont le rendre balanced.

[Mormuth]

40 pv sur un trade au lvl 2 sans compter tout le sustain au lvl 1 je trouve pas ça trollesque du tout.

Enfin, c'est pas comme si sur un all in early ca se joue à 30 pv près

[Demidarus]

-" Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt"

Ca va tuer le perso ce changement quand-même...

Message supprimé par son auteur.

[Asurya XIII]

La partie : "entendre rengar a l'activation" si dans la range est ridicule par contre yep j'avais pas vu.

[Éraflure]

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Publié par Demidarus

-" Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt"

Ca va tuer le perso ce changement quand-même...

En même temps, si tu donnes un buff unilatéral à Rengar qui est déjà très très fort, il finira permaban en moins de 24 heures.

Message supprimé par son auteur.

[Mormuth]

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Publié par Keyen

...

MON DIEU.

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avec ses attaques de base

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DE BASE

AAAH MAIS C'EST NUL EN FAIT

Sinon pour Fiora j'ai toujours pris ce passif comme un outil pour te donner de bons trades early et un peu de sustain donc jle trouve pas inutile (surtout que ca booste encore plus Fiora doran shield comme perso anti ranged casse couille au top à pouvoir free farm en early + spam w)

[23 Cm]

"Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them"

C'est ça qui suxx

[Bya]

Dans une des quote du dessus:

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R's runspeed being upped right now really allows it to be used for strategic set ups, but is probably stronger than a character like this needs at rank 1. While revealing him earlier might sound like a super nerf, in practice it's shown that it's not actually enough to stop people from feeling totally jumped. The VO playing when he ults though has been testing -very- well both as/against and really strikes fear into enemies. What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?

Visiblement le nerf ne change pas grand chose.

Et perso j'aime bien l'idée d'avoir un son global :badass:

Message supprimé par son auteur.

[Mormuth]

Un "Fear the hunter" sur toute la map serait bien stylé

Tfaçon Rengar c'est vraiment un perso avec un feeling ultra particulire et agréable.

Entre les "Not so fast" et les "Rawr" il est tellement stylé (et ce skin de base mfg)

[Éraflure]

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Publié par ©

"Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them"

C'est ça qui suxx

Si Warwick peut s'en accommoder avec son énhaurme mobilité, je pense que Rengar y survivra.

[Lawless]

Perso ce qui vas vraiment changer la donne c'est le Z qui n'a plus de RM /Armor .

Le Z en second skill te permettait de tenir ta lane sans trop de difficulté sur des trades court sans avoir besoin de se build tanky et ce quelque soit le type d'adversaire .

C'est plus du tout le cas, et je QQ, j'ai l'impression qu'ils veulent qu'on le build vraiment tanky ce qui est nul à chier sur rengar .

[Lugi Sakabu]

Perso, ce que je vois, c'est qu'ils l'alignent sur le reste des assassins.