[Pierre Costals]

J'ai pensé que ce sujet, paru sur le forum de wardb, pourrait aider beaucoup de personnes à faire leur choix de carrière.

L'auteur de l'article est Left.

Introduction
This thread is a continuation of the old Zealot/Shaman comparison thread. I decided to move to a new thread because I needed more initial posts in order to effectively flesh out the whole comparison guide, and to avoid scrolling through a huge wall of text every time I make an edit. Please use this thread, not the old one, for continuing discussion.

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By now I'm more or less sick of all the shaman vs. zealot threads and comments. They range from "Shamans are overpowered zealots suck QQ buff us" to "Things are fine" to "ZOMG I'm teh awesome look at how much I can outheal everyone by!" Plus, there are "we got nerfed/gimped buff us plz" type threads on both the shaman and the zealot forums. The majority of these posts/threads give circumstantial evidence and/or scenario healing screenshots in an attempt to make the point. I'm not interested in that.

Thus, I decided to create a REAL comparison thread.

I'm less interested in how the classes are currently played, and more interested in the abilities themselves. The abilities demonstrate the true potential of the classes, in my opinion. Thus, since I play a zealot and my wife is rolling a shaman, I'm going to make an effort to create some sort of objective comparison between the classes, at least as they are now. It should give us a better idea of any disparities.

It may take me a couple days to compile this thing completely, so be patient.

Important Notes
1] When you hover a spell to view it, be sure that you are comparing the two spells at the same character rank. Sometimes WarDB's auto-generated tooltip displays a different rank than rank 40.
2] Some spells seem to be "stuck" in WarDB (part or all of the number doesn't change with rank). Dark Medicine is one of these; there may be others.

Please be aware of these two issues when comparing numbers across spells.

Part 1: Healing

Healing Actions
(Only base actions, not mastery actions, are covered in this list.)
[Zealot] Flash of Chaos / [Shaman] No Equivalent
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Cordial / [Shaman] 'Ey, Quit Bleedin'
[Zealot] Dark Medicine / [Shaman] Gork'll Fix It
[Zealot] Elixir of Dark Blessings / [Shaman] Bigger, Better, An' Greener
[Zealot] No Equivalent / [Shaman] Bleed Fer' Me
[Zealot] Veil of Chaos / [Shaman] Don' Feel Nuthin
[Zealot] Dust of Pandemonium / [Shaman] Gather Round
[Zealot] Leaping Alteration / [Shaman] No Equivalent

Comments:
In everything but name, almost all healing abilities of Zealots and Shamans are exactly the same, down to the range, action point cost, and base amount healed. However, there are two notable heals that Zealots have which shamans don't: Flash of Chaos, a low through-put, low efficiency, instant cast direct heal; and Leaping Alteration, a target capped, AOE heal over time. Shamans, on the other hand, get a relatively strong life drain in Bleed 'Fer Me. The only other actual difference between the classes is in the shield: the Shaman shield is, up front, more powerful than the Zealot version. It has a longer range and absorbs almost twice as much damage. The only downside I found is that apparently it is limited to group members only (or was at one point in time, anyway). However, Revian notes below that at high values of Willpower, the Zealot shield can actually catch up in terms of overall effectiveness. This is because the heal portion of the Zealot shield scales as per an instant cast heal, but the shield portion of the two shields does not scale. Thus, the Zealot shield can absorb more effective damage post ~650 willpower. (Thanks to Reivan for the information; I'm taking his/her word for it.)

Basically, out of the box, Zealots and Shamans are equally powerful healers. Zealots are a tad more versatile, and frankly I think Leaping Alteration is probably the coolest heal in the game. However, Shamans have a life drain DoT. (Zealots also have a life drain direct damage, but it requires 9 ranks into Alchemy to obtain and is a 2 second cast.)

The differences start to show up in masteries and class mechanics, which I will cover in detail below (later!). However, basically what it comes down to is that (1) a Shaman who chooses to do damage can boost his healing significantly, while a Zealot who chooses to do damage doesn't boost his healing at all; and (2) a Shaman, if he chooses, can spec to increase the power of all of his healing spells in a single mastery path, while a Zealot can only choose one or two (out of three) categories of heals to boost. It should also be noted that speccing Mork gives Shamans access to a powerful heal/buff called Do Sumfin Useful.

So far, advantage Shaman. While the Zealot has marginally more versatility and mobility, the Shaman can use mastery and class mechanics to boost their healing abilites significantly over that of the Zealot and still throw out decent damage via their life drain and their Mork/Gork mechanic. A healing Zealot (and what other kind is there really currently?) will deal little to no damage, while a healing Shaman can still dish it out in between the heals.

Healing Morale Abilities
Many morale abilities are the same across all the healing careers:
[Zealot] Divine Favor / [Shaman] Divine Favor
[Zealot] Rampaging Siphon / [Shaman] Rampaging Siphon
[Zealot] Steal Life / [Shaman] Steal Life
[Zealot] Alter Fate / [Shaman] Alter Fate

However, there are a few career-specific healing morale abilities:
[Zealot] Eye of Sheerian / [Shaman] Breath of Mork
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Shielding (15 Alchemy) / [Shaman] Feelz No Pain (15 Mork)

Obviously, the base morale abilities are equivalent in every way. The career-specific level 2 morale abilities are different, but seem fairly well balanced. The Shaman version heals slightly more per target and has the capacity to hit more targets (if they are clustered up within 30 feet), but is ranged limited and more situation specific. The Zealot version is a little more universally useful in terms of range, but is limited to groupmates only. It doesn't seem to have a range limit, amazingly. (I wonder how far away it can work?)

The level 4 morale abilities (both of which require 15 points in a mastery path) seem different but fairly well balanced as well. One shields and gives action points, the other heals (for a bit less) and reduces damage. Scaling issues could make the Zealot (shielding) version inferior in terms of damage cancelation, but the 250 action points per party member is still fairly powerful in the heat of battle.

Healing Tactics
It is a good bit more difficult to compare tactics side-by-side, as they don't parallel each other as well as abilities do. So, I think the better way to do this is to just list them. For this section, I'll try to include all tactics that increase healing output, but not necessarily tactics related to healing that add other damage or utility. Those will be covered elsewhere.

Both:
Discipline
Restorative Burst

Shaman Only:
Green Cleanin'
Pass It On (11 Mork)
Extra Special Mushrooms

Zealot Only:
Chaotic Force
Warping the Spirit
Changer's Touch (11 Alchemy)
Transference (11 Witchcraft)
Tzeentch's Grip (11 Dark Rites)
Blessing of Chaos
Drink Deeply
By Tzeentch's Will!

Here is where the Zealot really starts to shine in healing versatility. Whatever your healing spells of choice, there are tactics for you. I personally love Tzeentch's Cordial, which means that Drink Deeply is attractive as a tactic. Any of the three mastery tactics are really pretty good; which is most effective will probably be pretty situational. Two are life drains, which I feel is really in the spirit of the class. If you like direct heals, there are more critical-based healing tactics than you can fit in your slots, so go crazy. Blessing of Chaos is especially nice.

Shaman's just don't get as much versatility here, it appears. They best they have is a 10% increased crit chance to their direct heals, which isn't much. Pass It On is neat, but may not really be that effective at a 25% chance.

Advantage Zealot.

[Pierre Costals]

Part 2: Damage

Damage Actions
[Zealot] Scourge / [Shaman] Brain Bursta
[Zealot] Warp Reality / [Shaman] Life Leaka
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Cry / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Storm of Ravens (9 Witchcraft) / [Shaman] Bunch o' Waaagh
[Zealot] Rite of Agony / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Bleed Fer' Me
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Yer A Weaklin'
[Zealot] Demon Spittle / [Shaman] Scuse Me!
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Big Waaagh! (5 Gork)
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Gork's Barbs' (5 Da Green)
[Zealot] Boon of Tzeentch (9 Alchemy) / [Shaman] I'll Take That! (5 Mork)
[Zealot] Chaotic Agitation (9 Dark Rites) / [Shaman] Da Waaagh! Is Coming (9 Gork)
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Lash / [Shaman] You Got Nuthin!
[Zealot] Winds of Insanity (13 Dark Rites) / [Shaman] Geddoff! (13 Gork)
[Zealot] Aethyric Shock (13 Alchemy) / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Mirror of Madness (13 Witchcraft) / [Shaman] No direct equivalent

Comments:
Shaman and Zealot damage spells parallel each other often, but are not nearly as identical as their paired healing spells. Some opposing entries in the above list have some significant differences even though their general effect is of the same type.

First off, one interesting note is that Shamans deal Elemental damage while Zealots deal Corporeal damage. This isn't all that significant in and of itself, except to note that Sorcerers also deal Corporal damage. Thus, Order players may be more likely to stack Corporeal Resistance (against the sorcs) and thus be less damage-able by Zealots. This is speculation, however; it remains to be seen what people will actually do.

Masteries aside, Zealots get AOE (a point blank AOE as well as a cone effect AOE) earlier in their careers. Shamans have to wait until level 40 to get their version of a cone effect AOE, and even then it is a bit weaker. Conversely, Shamans have more options single target, including a life drain DoT and a direct damage with debuff. Both classes get a regular DoT effect, but Zealots also get a instant cast direct damage nuke on a 5s cooldown. As mentioned before, both careers get a silence at end-game. The Zealot's version costs a bit more, but does a lot more damage.

Shamans get a couple abilities either baseline or lower in a mastery spec than Zealots. Shamans have a direct damage life drain which requires only 5 ranks into Mork; Zealots can only get their version by speccing 9 ranks into Alchemy. (The Zealot version is a bit more powerful, however, once learned.) Then there is Storm of Ravens, the spell every Zealot loves to hate. It requires an active harbinger, requires 9 ranks in Witchcraft, and uses more action points to do less damage than the Shaman's baseline ability, Bunch o' Waaagh.

Depending on mastery, Shamans can get quite a few nifty damage tools, including a big, fast nuke (Big Waaagh!) in Gork or an anti-melee debuff (Gork's Barbs) in Da Green. The anti-melee debuff looks somewhat unuseful to me, given it's long cast time and relatively short duration. However, Big Waaagh! is nice. The higher mastery abilities in Dark Rites (Zealots) and Gork (Shamans) parallel each other more or less, with each career getting a PBAOE with knockback and a ranged, targetted AOE effect. However, Zealots speccing into other masteries get access to abilities that Shamans have no access to at all, including a stun and a potent anti-healer debuff.

Overall, while leveling Shamans appear more potent versus single targets, while Zealots have some decent AOE capability. At end-game, the classes diversify somewhat, and masteries become quite important in defining the direction the class takes. However, Shamans still retain potent single-target abilities that Zealots don't have. Zealots gain a few more situational options, though, by virtue of their mastery.

Damage Morale Abilities
[Both] Steal Life
[Both] Rampaging Siphon
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Gork Sez Stop
[Zealot] Suppressing the Fragile Unbelievers / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Scream (15 Witchcraft) / [Shaman] Fists of Gork (15 Gork)
[Zealot] Windblock (15 Dark Rites) / [Shaman] No direct equivalent

Comments:
Neither career has overwhelming damaging morale abilities. Most morale abilities are either utility or healing based. There are a few differentiators. Where Zealots get a strong, non-damaging debuff (Tzeentch's Talon), Shamans get a strong anti-movement, damaging debuff in Gork Sez Stop. Gork Sez Stop is also one of the most unique and interesting spells in the game, with potential for all kinds of utility if used properly. (Put it on a flag runner, anyone?) For Rank 3 morale, it is the Zealot with the damaging debuff (silence), while the Shaman gets a non-damaging but still potent AP drain called You Weren't Using Dat. However, common among all these morale abilities is only situational utility.

For mastery morale abilities, single-target specced Shamans and Zealots both get a powerful AOE knockback coupled with direct damage. The Zealot version does more damage and therefore at first glance appears superior. However, the wording on the Shaman version leaves open the interpretation that perhaps it is a targetted AOE and not a point blank AOE? If so, that would add additional usefulness to the Shaman version because it could be used from range. (However, maybe I'm wrong about this and it is actually point blank; I have no information confirming either case.)

Zealots going Dark Rites have another option open to them in an AOE, reduced healing debuff coupled with direct damage. In my mind, it might be a bit more useful than the Shaman ability drain counterpart: Steal Yer Thunder, but I'd have to see it in action.

Damage Tactics
Tactics are hard to compare side-by-side, but a few line up nicely. Here is my best shot.

[Both] Divine Fury
[Zealot] Chaotic Force (3 Alchemy) / [Shaman] Mork Is Watchin'
[Zealot] Lashing Waves / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Backlash / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Manipulation (7 Alchemy) No direct equivalent
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Mork's Touch
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Nuthin' But Da WAAAGH! (3 Mork)
[Zealot] Endless Gifts and Swirling Vortex (7 Dark Rites) / [Shaman] Ere We Goes Again (11 Da Green)
[Zealot] Scourged Warping / [Shaman] Ain't Done Yet!
[Zealot] Transference (11 Witchcraft) / [Shaman] No tactic equivalent, but see Bleed Fer' Me
[Zealot] Waves of Chaos / [Shaman] No direct equivalent

Comments:
Both careers have a way to increase the damage and frequency of their group-granted damaging abilities (Marks and the 'Ere We Go ability) via tactics. Both have the standard +damage, -healing tactic. Both have an increased crit tactic, although the Shaman verion applies less crit to more abilities.

Zealots have a few more damage-related tactics than Shamans. However, this makes some sense, as Shamans have many debuff related tactics and abilities (see "Utility" below). Still, many Zealot tactics are fairly situation specific whereas the Shaman versions are more universally useful. Getting more out of WAAAGH! and dispelling opponents is nearly always useful, both for damage and healing. On the other hand, the Zealot damage tactics depend on whether single-target damage or AOE damage is the preferred damage style as well as whether or not the Zealot is being attacked.

For specifically cool tactics, the only one that jumps out is Manipulation. Unfortunately, manipulation is too weak in it's current state to be worth using. 25% chance for 25% damage is roughly 6.25% of your direct healing being turned back as damage on the opponent. That's... miniscule, even compared to the Zealot's weak normal damage. The only place this might at all be viable is in a build specced for Dust of Pandemonium, but even then it isn't likely to put much damage on your target. Couple this with the fact that it is a proc, and therefore unreliable, and it starts to look like there are much better tactics I could use instead.

However, if Manipulation was changed to be a flat percentage (say 10%) and applied to all healing done, then I would consider it in a build similar to this one.

[Pierre Costals]

Part 3: Utility
To me, utility means buffs, debuffs, rezzes, etc. Let's jump right in...

Buffs
Actions:
[Zealot] Mark of Daemonic Fury / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Mark of the Spell Destroyer / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Mark of the Vortex / [Shaman] Mork's Buffer
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] 'Ere We Go!
[Zealot] Daemonic Fortitude / [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful (9 Mork)

Morale:
[Both] Divine Protection

Tactics:
[Zealot] Blessing of Chaos / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] Tzeentch's Refreshment (7 Witchcraft) and/or Empowered Alteration / [Shaman] Lookit What I Did! (7 Mork)
[Zealot] Endless Gifts and/or Swirling Vortex (7 Dark Rites) / [Shaman] Ere We Goes Again
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Get Movin'!

Comments:
Both careers have useful buffs, but the Zealot's mark system is both more varied and more interesting. The granted abilities of marks are roughly equivalent to the Shaman's 'Ere We Go ability in terms of adding some damage output to the group. However, the mark system has the drawback of requiring groupmates to actually use the marks, while 'Ere We Go, as Duty points out, has a very powerful group morale building component in the Get Movin' tactic.

Both careers get one or more AP restore methods. Both also have a powerful higher-up healing+utility spell, but they are different. The Shaman's version (Do Sumfin Useful) is less powerful and requires a mastery spec, but it has no cooldown. The Zealot's Daemonic Fortitude, on the other hand, is extremely powerful, but has a long cooldown.

Rocdog points out that Tzeentch's Shielding might also be considered a utility/buff spell spell due to the 250 action points that it grants in addition to absorbing damage. Feelz No Pain is in a similar position due to the damage reduction buff. Whether a damage reduction buff or 250 action points is more useful at level 40 remains to be seen. Either way, I feel the healing/damage prevention are the more important component of these abilities, hence why they are listed primarily up in the Healing section.

Debuffs
Debuffs are again hard to compare side by side. Here is a listing.

Zealot:
Harbinger of Doom
Mirror of Madness (13 Witchcraft)
Tzeentch's Lash and Lashing Waves (Tactic; 3 Witchcraft)
Tzeentch's Talon (Rank 1 Morale)
Windblock (Rank 4 Morale; 15 Dark Rites)
Sweeping Disgorgement (Tactic; 3 Dark Rites)

Shaman:
Yer Not So Bad
Get'n Smarter
Yer A Weaklin' and Waaagh! Frenzy (Tactic, 3 Da Green)
You'z Squishy (9 Da Green)
You Got Nuthin!
Sticky Feetz (13 Da Green)
Scuse Me!
You Weren't Using Dat (Rank 3 Morale)
Steal Yer Thunder (Rank 4 Morale; 15 Da Green)
Leaky Brainz (Tactic, 3 Gork)
Mork's Touch (Tactic, 7 Gork)
Hurts, Don't It? (Tactic, 11 Gork)

Both sides have a silence. Beyond that, here the Shaman is the one that shines. Shamans are little green debuffing machines. Even without the right spec they can reduce any of a number of the enemy's stats or resistances in various ways, and speccing Gork or Da Green lets them do it even better. While the Zealot has the Harbinger, it is single target only. The only other really broadly useful debuffs the Zealot has are a morale ability and a tactic that modifies Daemonic Fortitude. The others are quite situation and spec specific. The Shaman has a clear edge in this category.

Dispels
[Zealot] Glimpse of Chaos / [Shaman] Greener 'n Cleaner

As Slogo points out, dispelling abilities are an area that I should have examined much more closely. On first glance, both are useful but remove different debuffs: Shamans cover curses and ailments, while Zealots cover curses and hexes. It sounds equal until you actually look into the abilities of Order classes. Slogo is developing a guide to dispellable Order debuffs, which is worth the read and goes into a lot more detail than I am choosing to here. Slogo's original post and also this post give briefer lists of curses, hexes, and ailments.

The biggest thing that is apparent to me is that hexes are the most common debuff type among order, and also many of the most powerful debuffs are hexes. Thus, Zealots have a bit of an edge in what types of things they can dispel. On the other hand, Witch Hunters (the bane of healer existence) use ailments, meaning Shamans will do a little better versus them. However, at this point it is really speculation which dispel will be more useful end-game.

Rezzing
As support classes, both the Shaman and the Zealot get some resurrection abilities.

Actions:
[Zealot] Tzeentch Shall Remake You / [Shaman] Gedup!
[Zealot] Mark of Remaking / [Shaman] No direct equivalent
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Shrug It Off (11 Mork)

Morale:
[Both] Alter Fate

Tactics:
[Zealot] No direct equivalent / [Shaman] Dat Makes Me Dizzy

Comments:
Pros and cons for each. Both have a combat rez, but the Shaman's takes twice as long unless affected by the Dat Makes Me Dizzy tactic. And even then, it's a three second cast vs. an instant cast followed by a three second stun. Either way, you are out of the fight for three seconds while rezzing.

Mark of Remaking is extremely powerful for a Zealot, and can be cast reactively if desired. The 10 minute cooldown means it won't be up that much in RvR, however. Shrug It Off strikes me as very slightly less powerful, but still very useful. It's a 2 second in-combat rez, for one thing, and restores a lot of health. The cooldown makes it less useful than it could be, but it should still be up often enough to get good use out of it. However, I doubt it will get used to rez more than one person very often; two or more dead groupmates in the same place at the same time usually means there isn't time to get off a rez.

The T4 morale version is the same for all support classes.

Surviveability
Inevitably, healers get targetted in RvR. When that happens, will the Zealot or the Shaman stand a better chance of living?

This is a topic that is hard to measure quantitatively. Some things are similar, but against different kinds of damage: [Zealot] Tzeentch's Warding vs. [Shaman] Too Smart For Dat. Both classes get a PBAOE knockback, in slightly different forms: [Zealot] Breath of Tzeentch (it must really smell bad) vs. [Shaman] Eeeek!, and both classes get detaunts: [Zealot] Chaotic Blur vs. [Shaman] Look Over There!. Both classes also give longer cooldown damage reductions. Zealots get Embrace the Warp, an extremely powerful "Oh Crap" ability but on a long cooldown, while Shamans get an AOE detaunt called Stop hittin' me! The Zealot's ability is unquestionably the more powerful effect, as it doesn't have a range limit or a "you cannot attack" caveat, but the longer cooldown means it must be used more wisely. Both classes have dispels, but of different types (see above). The Zealot dispel is useful versus more classes, especially Bright Wizards (hexes), while the Shaman has a better time versus Witch Hunters (ailments).

Zealots get the Warped Flesh tactic, which can be a pretty significant reduction in incoming damage. However, Zealots have no speed increases and snare abilities of their own, making it hard to get away from melee classes. Flash of Chaos helps mitigate this issue by providing a spammable healing spell which can be used on the run, something the Shaman doesn't have. And, of course, Mark of Remaking when things get really bad.

Shamans have no heal on the run, but they do have Whazat behind you?! and RUN AWAY! as tactics that help them escape melee attackers. They have no spammable instant heal, but judicious use of their life drain DoT/HoT can provide additional healing while kiting. In addition, Shamans can reduce the cooldown of their Eeeek! ability to only 20 seconds through the tactic Git Outta Here! (Whether using the tactic is worth it is a different question.)

Overall, it strikes me that Zealots are the significantly more survivable of the two as long as they have all their cooldowns up, and even retain some advantages when the cooldowns aren't up. However, Shamans are not without tools of their own, especially in the increased mobility category.

[Pierre Costals]

Part 4: Career Mechanics
Career mechanics cannot be easily compared side by side. Instead, I will try to address each career's features in paragraph form.

Shamans
First, Shamans. Shamans have the WAAAGH! mechanic. WAAAGH! is fairly well described in this post, but I will put a summary here. Shamans have Mork WAAAGH! and Gork WAAAGH! Gork (Red) is generated by healing spells and affects damage spells; Mork (Yellow) is generated by damage spells and affects healing spells. You can build up to a 5-stack of WAAAGH! of either type. You expend your built-up WAAAGH! by using a spell of the opposite type. (Shaman spells which make use of WAAAGH! are labelled as such in the tooltip.) When you expend WAAAGH!, it uses up your stack (unless you have a tactic to prevent that). Expending WAAAGH! does one of two things: for instant-cast or channeled spells, it increases effect by 5/10/15/20/25%; for cast-time spells it decreases cast time by 20/40/60/80/100%.

Basically, what this all equates to is that for every few spells in one category that a Shaman uses, then can use an empowered spell in a different category. This encourages the Shaman to both do damage and heal, as doing one will increase the potency of the other. Do note, however, that the mechanic is such that you cannot increase your total healing effectiveness simply by doing damage; the boost isn't that large. (The same is true for a damage boost from healing.) However, what you can do is effectively use both damage and healing to greater effect per spell than you would be if you were using exclusively one or the other. It also allows very effective off-healing or off-damaging from a Shaman, as a 5-to-1 spell type rotation allows for some very beefy heals or nukes.

Of particular note is the Shaman ability Yer Not So Bad, a 2-second cast which can be reduced to instant with a 5-stack of healing-generated WAAAGH! This gives a healing Shaman a potentially unlimited supply of AP for a minimal expenditure of time and effort.

Zealot
Ah, the Zealot "mechanic." I have to let my disdain come through a bit here; I feel that Zealot mechanics are very weak and poorly executed. Theoretically, the Zealot "mechanic" is a conglomoration of marks, harbingers, and rituals. In practice, none of these make much difference.

Zealot marks are the defensive side of the ritual magic "mechanic" given to the zealot. They teach an ability and provide a stat buff, but they really aren't all that fantastic. The ability is on a one minute cooldown: much to long to be of general use. And the stats, while nice, are not gamebreaking. The biggest downsides are that (a) marks are group only, and (b) each target can only have a single mark. (If two zealots mark a target with different marks, the newer mark cast will overwrite the old one.)

The harbinger was originally intended (in literature) to be one of a number of harbingers, debuffs which the Zealot could place on opponents using ritual magic. As it stands now, the harbinger is a relatively nice single-target corporeal resistance debuff. But that is all it is; it does no damage by itself and helps few careers other than the Zealot. Plus, it can only be cast on a single target at a time. It is also a prerequisite for a number of damaging Zealot abilities or tactics, which is fine in concept but mostly a nuisance in application (due to the relative ineffectiveness of it by itself).

Rituals are the third component of the Zealot mechanic. In theory, they are really great: put a big AOE buff on the ground that helps shape the course of battle? Sign me up! But in practice, they are weak. First, they don't move, and they can only be recast once per 30 seconds. This makes them hard to keep at the front lines in a moving battle. Second, they only affect groupmates, which vastly reduces their usefulness. Third, they require 5 points into a mastery tree to acquire. Thus, Zealots cannot even see half of their class-defining mechanic until they are halfway to rank 40 and have spent time specializing in a tree! Even then, they are usually limited to whatever ritual is in their specialization line. Finally, they are weak, defensive effects only. Ritual of Innervation is about as good as they get, and as it stands Innervation is the only ritual really worth speccing to get. The others might be worth taking on the way by, but they aren't really great. A tactic can turn rituals into an offensive ability at later levels, but it requires a tactics slot to use (something most Zealots are fairly short on already).

In summary, the Zealot mechanic, which has so much potential, seems only half-implemented and feels too weak to make any real difference. I could never use my marks or my rituals and I wouldn't be missing much. (The same can't be said of the harbinger, but only because it is explicitly labeled as a prerequisite for using other abilities and tactics, not because it is that useful in and of itself.) Something needs to change with this "mechanic" (if you can even call it that) to make it worthwhile. Making rituals baseline trainable would be a good start, but even then the whole system would need some work.

Comments
I personally feel that Mythic got it right with the Shaman. The Mork/Gork mechanic is great. It rewards an active hybrid playstyle while still allowing plenty of flexibility for people to play as they like. It allows for some potent combinations without being overpowered. It is also a core part of how the class is played from early levels.

With the Zealot, the mechanic just didn't come out. I don't know whether it wasn't planned out thoroughly or if they just didn't have time to finish it as planned. Either way, it seems weak. Half of the mechanic (rituals) isn't even playable until you are halfway leveled, and the other half (marks) hardly is a key part of Zealot play. The harbinger is as close to a mechanic as the Zealot gets, but it feels forced. Overall, I feel that the Zealot mechanic is noticeably weak and poorly implemented. Mythic could have done a great job here, but it just didn't come out nearly as well as it sounded on paper when they first described the class.

The Shaman definitely wins in the mechanics category.

[Pierre Costals]

Part 5: Masteries
First off, for those who are unsure, this post and this post describe how mastery paths work, and this thread describes how core vs. non-core abilities rank up with level and mastery points.

Masteries, especially for the Zealot, have a lot of players up in arms. When examining the Zealot and the Shaman, how do the mastery ladders/trees/paths (I will use the term "paths" here) compare?

Please note that this section is my opinion. You may disagree, and that is ok. Post your comments and I can try to incorporate them. (It is hard to compare entire mastery layouts purely objectively, so there is some conjecture and theory below.)

The striking difference is that Shamans must choose to spec for either healing or damage, while Zealots always have both in whatever mastery path they select. (You can view mastery builders at WarDB: Zealot, Shaman) The exact breakdown is:

Shaman:
Mork (Healing)
Gork (Damage)
Da Green (Buffing and Debuffing)

Zealot:
Alchemy (Direct healing and damage effects)
Witchcraft (Healing and damage over time effects)
Dark Rites (Area of effect healing and damage)

There are advantages and disadvantages to both mastery layouts. The one immediately apparent is that a Shaman can up all of their skills in any particular role very effectively. Shamans can maximize all of their major healing abilities within a single mastery path, or all of their damage abilities within a different path, etc. Of course, in order to do this, a Shaman must sacrifice another class of abilities to a lower value. Specializing in healing necessitates that all damaging abilties will be less by default, etc.

Meanwhile, Zealots improve multiple types of abilities within a single path. The upside is that you always have some built in cross-versatility between healing and damage. The downside is that you cannot maximize your healing (or damage) potential across all abilities. The result is that you must choose which type of heals you want to maximize, which in turn limits you to only using that type if you want to be at maximum efficiency.

Now, Shaman's can get away with going full healing because, due to their WAAAGH! mechanic, they are always able to still throw out some highly effective damage spells every fifth or sixth cast. The opposite is also true, as Gork's WAAAGH! helps them throw out effective heals when they are dealing damage. Zealots, due to a lack of mechanic, do not have this luxury. It appears that the idea with the Zealot paths was to include both healing and damage in each path, so as to allow Zealots to still deal decent damage as they seek to maximize their heals.

This is a great idea for the Zealot... in theory. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that there are some important drawbacks. I will do my best to list them here:
1) Zealots are, out of the box, more versatile healers than Shamans due to the variety of healing spells they can cast. However, as masteries increase, Zealots actually become more limited as time goes on because they can only maximize one of their three healing spell categories. Thus, to be most effective, the Zealot becomes limited to using only their better heals. Meanwhile, the Shaman who has specced healing gets all their healing maximized, thus actually gaining versatility by virtue of the fact that all the tools they have are at maximum effectiveness. It remains to be seen if this is actually the case, but it appears to me that Zealots might actually be the less versatile, more specialized healer career at end-game.
2) The same point as (1) holds, but with respect to damage.
3) Zealot damage is, currently, sub-par at best and a total waste of action points at worst. Thus, for many Zealots, roughly half of each mastery path is wasted. We are usually healing, so the damaging abilities aren't very useful most of the time. This, coupled with the fact that almost all higher-end abilities in the Zealot paths are damaging abilities, makes Zealot healing look fairly weak by rank 40.

This isn't to say that I don't like the idea of the Zealot mastery paths. I do; I just don't think it was well-implemented. Without either a mechanic that allows for better use of off-spec abiltiies or some higher-end healing abilities in each path, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the way the paths are right now is simply sub-par. While some of the specific utility abilities in the paths are excellent, they are all offensive/damage oriented, and this is a class that isn't effective at damage otherwise. Hybridization therefore feels forced, and healing ability feels neglected. (The potential exception is the Dark Rites path, which improves one of the Zealot's few potent damage tools, Demon Spittle, and also one of the most potent healing tools, Leaping Alteration. Combined with the excellent utility of Winds of Insanity, it is little wonder that many Zealots are considering this path.)

In conclusion, I believe the Shaman paths are currently better that the Zealot paths, because they allow most precise focus of ability, while still allowing effective hybridization due to the WAAAGH! mechanic. Zealot's, on the other hand, can fully improve only 1/3 of their excellent healing capability, while being simultaneously forced to improve 1/3 of their fairly abysmal damage capability. Changes to include potent, path-specific healing abilities higher up in each Zealot path would even the tables a bit, I think. As it stands now, I think the Shaman paths are better.

[Pierre Costals]

Conclusions
I haven't written this yet, because I haven't really come to an overall conclusion at this point. Nevertheless, I do hope to complete this section when I finish the overall comparison.

References
WarDB
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...ad.php?t=97557
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...ad.php?t=71785
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...ad.php?t=94712
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...ad.php?t=95257
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...ad.php?t=88008
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for....php?p=1578049

Additional space reserved in case I need it for future use.

[bidet]

très intéressant comme comparaison, au moins la on se base pas sur des légendes urbaines a la " on dit que " mais on se base sur du concret

[Nishta]

Argh, ce pavé en anglais !!

[Malte]

houla, ça a l'air intéressent il va falloir que je me motive a toute lire.... mais vu mon niveau d'anglais sa risque d'être bien long lol

[Apo Kalypse]

Bon qui nous fait un petit résumé ?

[bidet]

grosso modo cultiste pown chaman

[Apo Kalypse]

Tu as du mal comprendre car je pense que c'est plutôt l'inverse.

[Phaelgalis]

Citation :

grosso modo cultiste pown chaman

Il est loin d'être aussi catégorique, en gros il dit que le cultiste est un poil plus solide avec tous ses cd que le chaman. Si on s'en tient aux sorts de base le cultiste a un léger avantage sur le chaman en soin, et le chaman peut faire plus de degats sans que cela soit dommageable à ses capacités de soin.

Les tactiques du cultiste sont meilleures, mais les voies de maitrise du chaman ainsi que ses mécanismes de jeu sont plus intéressantes. Donc grosso modo les différences entre les 2 classes sont pas si énormes, d'ailleurs il arrive pas à aboutir à une conclusion satisfaisante.

Bon j'ai vraiment survolé quand même mais si vous aimez que heal et rien que heal faites une cultiste, et si vous aimez heal mais que vos dégats heal aussi vos alliés faites un chaman. Mais en fait choisissez au skin et au feeling, on est toujours meilleur quand on aime son perso! Si vous healez ce serait déjà bien, dans le deux cas se prendre pour une machine à dps n'est pas optimal.

[Apo Kalypse]

Je pense plutôt qui si vous voulez que healer y a pas photo le chaman est 10 fois mieux grâce à sa spec qui boost ts les heals.

[Verv']

Bah en gros il dit que le Chaman est une carrière sympa, complète avec une méchanique bien définie.
Le cultiste n'as pas de méchanique satisfaisante ce qui en fait un "weak".
De plus le Shaman gagne haut la main niveau healing, le cultiste est un chti peu plus résistant.
Le Chamane posède des tactiques moins intéréssantes dans l'absolu mais possède des debuffs plus maniables que le cultiste. Et là on se retrouve dans le problème de la méchanique du cultiste (c'est à dire rien) qui est juste un lanceur de sort sans spécificité malgrès ce qui était prévu coté Rituels etc...
De mon avis il as pas tort, il faudrait revoir un peu le cultiste qui mérite une meilleure méchanique qu'un bête healer qui met deux trois debuffs.

[Raamen]

Je ne suis pas d'accord avec toi Apo Kalypse niveau heal un cultiste (Je le joue en RvR seul heal de mon groupe) a l'avantage sur un chaman haut niveau, mais même si le chaman est un peu moins avantagé au niveau du heal, il peut dps et heal plus fot grâce à ça

[Phaelgalis]

Oui en fait il est pas super clair ce type lol, y se contredit dans des différentes conclusions. En gros si on prenait que les sorts de base, les tactiques et morales l'avantage irait au cultiste. Mais l'auteur trouve les mécaniques du cultiste et les voies de spécialisation inférieures à celles du chaman.

Pour les dégats le cultiste fait plus d'aoe et le chaman est meilleur en monocible, mais même avec les aoe les degats du cultiste sont bof bof. Le chaman est aussi plus polyvalent et moins enfermé dans son rôle de healer. Niveau buff et dispell c'est kif kif, sauf que le cultite peut dispell les malédictions ce qui est un avantage.

Voilà en gros sachant que le type hésite lui même. Je précise que c'est ce qui se retire de mon second survol du post, j'ai évité le côté technique car je n'ai qu'un chaman lv 10. C'est donc SON opinion alors me flammer pas si vous êtes pas d'accord hein.

[bidet]

le truc c 'est que comme précisé a partir d 'un certains niveau de volonté pas mal de spell de cultiste scalent bien mieux que ceux du chaman

ensuite il dit pas que la solidité et un peu mieux il dit que c 'est carrément incomparable tellement la dif est flagrante, ce qui en pvp est généralement important , on le vois d 'ailleur rapidement lorsqu'un chaman se fait un peu focus

de plus pour les spec oubliez aps quand meme qu'on peu remplire une arbres plus la moitié d 'une autre , les abrres boost les sort de 50% soit une perte de 25% de la barre a moitiée remplit par rapport avec un chaman

maintenant admettons on se spec full alchi et un complete avec witchcraft résultat on boot bien les soins de heal principaux et les soins de witchcraft sont justement ceux qui scalent mieux que ceux du chaman donc au final ca revient au meme


sinon grosso modo il dit que niveau spell heal ca se vaut , peu etre un leger désavantage sur le hot de base mais compensé par une meilleure mobilité pour le cultiste ( le flash heal instant ), le bouclier du zealot s'avere aussi bien supérieur au chaman avec plus de 650 willpower, pour les arbres le chaman peu mieux se spé et le cultiste semble plus versatile

les morales se valent avec quelques différences donc des style de jeu différent avec chacune leur avantages et inconvénient

niveua tactique avanatge au cultiste car trés bonne symbiose entre les tactiques

sur les damages le chaman est plus orienté mono et le cultiste multi avec un leger avantage pour le chaman

les morales de damages semblent etre mieux pour le cultiste avec des débuff plus interessant que ceux du chaman

les damage tactiques sont plus interessantes avec le chaman car offrent plus de débuff



niveua buff : systeme de buff plus varié et interessant avec le cultiste

le chaman débuff bien mieux ( plus varié , moins de conditions )


niveua dispell , 2 dispell différent ( le cultiste peu débuff cage du sorcier et pas le chaman et chaman peu enlever les CC du répurgateur car maladie ) bref a voir en pratique mais ca doit se valoir

niveau rez , le rez instant du chaman est bien mais est finalement pas si efficace que ca avec le stun de 3 sec car ca fait 3 sec ou tu ne fait rien , bref a voir
il dit que la marque de renaissance du cultiste est quand a elle extremement puissante ( sorte de pierre de rez ) notament en groupe , tu meurt et tu rez avec si les adversair"e focus le heal ou autre

niveau survivabilité il arrive a la conclusion que le cultiste a une survivabilité bien plus significante que le chaman et meilleure mobilité ( le flash heal a spam )



le probleme du cultiste vien du fait qu'il ne semble pas posseder vraiment de mécanique de classe telle celle du chaman ( waaagh )

a voir ensuite en pratique dans les combat sérieux et sérrés a t'on vraiment le temp d 'utiliser cette symbiose ou pas?


les arbres semblent mieux consuits et plus clairs ché le chaman ensuite j'ai marqué ce que je pensais a ce sujet en haut du post



pour l'instant il ne donne pas vraiment de conclusion

bref je trouve son opinion plutot respectable est bien contruite car il fait une analyse pratique des points évoqué plus haut
bref si on est un tant soit peu logique on arrive a peu pres a la meme chose

de pratique sans faire le fan boy je dirai que le cultiste est finalement avantagé dans le pvp poussé , ou la solidité et la mobilité d'une classe heal sont des choses vraiment trés trés importante , c 'est bien de heal 10% mieux que l'autre mais si on se fait pown et que la mobilité ne suit pas le cour des evenement voila quoi

Message supprimé par son auteur.

[Apo Kalypse]

Je comprends pas un truc, en quoi le zelot est plus résistant que le chaman ?

Il n'a pas accès au sort lvl 21 (3mins de CD) qui réduit de 50% les dégâts ?

[morir]

perso j'ai un cultiste 21 j'ai bien remarquer que mes heal sont un peu moins puissant que ceux des chamans avec qui je grp par contre je heal malgré tout plus que car je passe 0 sec a chercher a DD, moins souvent pris pour cible par les tanks adverse ( vue que je DD je suis derrier mon grp donc à l'abris assez souvent ), et en si je suis agro j'arrive a back relativement loin a coup de " absorbtion " + instant heal + instant regen life + Moral 1 ( Si pop)

par contre il est sur que sur une cible focus le cultiste va (main)tenir la cible en vie quelle que instant mais si le chaman aide pas à heal la cible finira par tombé. les heal du chaman sont relativement puissant on peut pas leur retirer par contre je sais pas comment marche le syteme de Waagh mais j'ai l'impression que ce systeme ne pousse les chamans à ne heal que quand la cible prend vraiment très cher et trés rarement en préventif ou sur des petit dégats.

Je sais que je me contredit avec un autre post ou j'avais dit que le cultiste avait plus un role de remonter les barres de vie que le chaman avait stabilisé mais la pratique ma contredit

De tout façon je pense que les deux classes sont complémentaire et que la façon de play de chacun rentre beaucoup en jeux

et de tout manière play IG > info papier

[Phaelgalis]

Y'a juste un truc sur la survivabilité du chamane qui n'est pas dans les arbres de talents ou la liste des skills. Pourtant c'est un argument de taille(huhu)! Ben ouais quand t'es un minus c'est plus facile de te planquer. Un simple caillou ça devient une montagne et au milieu d'une masse d'ork et d'élus va repérer un petit truc comme ça.

Tandis que l'espèce de fanfreluche fushia du cultiste ça se repère à 3km quand même! Le nombre de fois où les types m'ont ignoré pour charger la pauvre cultiste c'est assez hallucinant. Et puis je ne conteste pas l'utilité des boucliers mais pour ce qui est des heals quand les debufs heal ultra violent du jeu seront bien rodés...hé bien il n'est pas dit qu'il ne soit pas plus avantageux de courir pour sauver sa peau hein.

[bidet]

Citation :

Publié par Apo Kalypse

Je comprends pas un truc, en quoi le zelot est plus résistant que le chaman ?

Il n'a pas accès au sort lvl 21 (3mins de CD) qui réduit de 50% les dégâts ?

oui de 1 il n'as pas ce cd ,
de 2 son bouclier scale moins bien que celui du cultiste donc est moins bien a partir d 'un certain niveau de volonté
de 3 et c 'est surtout la , le chaman n'as pas d 'instant spammable comme le cultiste lorsqu'il est aggro! et ca ca fait vraiment une trés grosse dif
de 4 son détaunt est globalement inférieur