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eternite23
Roi / Reine
 

Cloange : question différemment posé

Le sujet est bien dans la secteur MMORPG, Faiseur de monde.
En effet, je me pose ce genre de question dans le contexte d'un jeu MMO RPG.
Et d'une gestion de la loi, et d'un indice de sécurité à la manière de Eve Online

Si on vit dans une société, où si l'on meurt, on dispose d'un clone, qui reçoit l'intégralité de la personnalité-mémoire etc... - oublions les aspects métaphysiques et imaginons simplement vivre dans une telle société

C'est ce qui se passe dans TOUS les MMO, vu qu'il n'y a pas de mort permanente, et ce que pour le coup on pourrait considérer que le meutre n'est pas plus tres important, et qu'il s'apparente finalement à un simple empechement.

Dans notre société, il y a une échelle, le meurtre étant le pire des crimes. Mais si ce fameux clonage existe, tel qu'on le voit dans les MMO, le meuttre faudrait il donc une si forte "pénalisation" ???

Rappel : dans Eve, les PK se font descendre a vue par les flics du coin.

Je me demande donc si dans ce cas, le vol par exemple n'est pas au fond plus grave ???

Enfin je cherche une façon de pénaliser les PK ou du moins ceux qui commettent des actes délictueux.
Y a t il déjà eu un jeu ou le personnage va vraiment en prison pour un temps défini ? Une heure ? Un jour ? Qqu a t il déja vu ca qq part ou qq chose d'un peu équivalent ?
Je m'intéresse à ce pb car je souhaite permettre aux joueurs d'etre PK certes, mais j'ai déjà vu des jeux "tués" par la surabondance de PK.
Quelles pistes pourriez vous imaginez pour un système orignal de controle des actes illégaux ?

Précision importante : je pars du principe dans mon jeu que les joueurs ont tous une biopuce implantée dans le cerveau, et que cette biopuce enregistre et communique à un serveur central, l'ensemble des actes délictueux commis. Donc en gros, le gars qui vole un cheval par exemple, voit immédiatement son indice de sécurité baisser. Cependant il n'est pas jugé immédiatement, mais seulement s'il est capturé par les forces de sécurité, ou bien qd il meurt, et demande l'activation de son clone...

Mais comment le juger ? Quelle pénalité ? Que devient son indice ? Vos idées sont les bienvenues

Dernière modification par eternite23 ; 24/08/2012 à 19h01.
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Titan.
Alpha & Oméga
 
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Salut, évite le Sms, surtout dans cette section et surtout pour ouvrir un thread.

j'ai souvent entendu parler de prison mais je l'ai jamais vu mis en place. les devs d'AoC en avait parler je sais pas ce qu'ils en ont fait, sinon il me semble que les devs d'archeage aussi.

si tu développe un concept de sandbox, il peut être bienvenue de laissze cette gestion aux joueurs (repérer les criminels, les capturer et les punir), reste à leur donner les moyen de le faire (des logs sur leurs possession ou le système de bounty d'EvE en sont des exemples).
en revanche si tu penche plus sur le themepark, mettre une amande quand le joueurs se fait attraper par les NPC-garde me semble suffisent non ?
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Yganor Wallace MIP
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A l'époque de T4C il y avait une prison, cependant tu n'y atterrissais (du moins chez Goa) que si un MJ l'avait décidé

Mais bon une prison étant une sorte de BAN RP je pense que du moins sur les jeux à abonnement le concept est très délicat à mettre en place, simplement parce qu'un ban réel est justifié / justifiable par des conditions générales, mais le non respect de règles rp aboutissant sur un empêchement de jeu est à mon sens très risque au niveau marketing, c'est toujours le même soucis.
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nepser
Dauphin
 
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Si tu es cloné directement, en quoi se faire PK est-il handicapant?
Si ce n'est pas pénalisant, pourquoi vouloir pénaliser les PK?

Si tu veux pénaliser les PK à juste rétribution: si on considère qu'il faut 30 secondes pour revivre dans un clone et retrouver une activité normale; un PK accumule cette dette pour chaque meurtre et devra attendre 30s fois le nombre de kill "pénalisant".
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PetitCoeuReD
Dieu / Déesse créateur/trice
 
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Je prefere l'idée de la mort permanente, pour les pK punitions ? Uniquement si cela se sais ou qu'il y a une quelconque preuve de l'actes commis..

Perso si je devait punir un tueur ou n'importe quelle personne qui perturbe la paix quelques part, je mettrai en prison pendant un certains temps

Et si la mort est permanent ou non et que l'on est dans un jeux RP je placerai une prison ou un truc qui ferait que l'on ne peut plus joue pendant une semaine, pendant se temps la notre perso est vivant puis après il est tués.
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PetitCoeuReD
Dieu / Déesse créateur/trice
 
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seconde poste en trop a supprimé. plz
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lujan
Alpha & Oméga
 
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Citation :
Mais comment le juger ? Quelle pénalité ? Que devient son indice ? Vos idées sont les bienvenues
Je vais prendre en exemple la réflexion menée par l'équipe de goblin works qui travail sur Path Finder Online:

-Les pénalités font partie intégrante du gamedesign et sont dépendantes de facteurs très différents : - Le social, l'alignement, l'économie et les transport.

Citation :
"Death, and the penalties a character suffers for dying, impact a surprisingly large part of the Pathfinder Online game design."
"One thing that we're deeply committed to at Goblinworks is building a game that has a low tolerance for "griefing.""
Le social :
La société sera structuré en royaumes et chacun d'entre eux sera dirigés par des "guildes" ces guildes choisiront l'alignement général du royaume.
L'autre part sociale est la "'réputation" :
Citation :
Your character will have a reputation as well. As your character undertakes various actions for others, those others will have the opportunity to provide feedback on the results, and you will have the opportunity to do the same in reverse.

Reputation is a social construct, and your reputation will flow through your social contacts. If nobody I know knows you, I will not have access to any of your reputation information. If some of my social connections know you, I will know what they know about your reputation. Treat my friends well or you may find it hard to do business with me.

We've also considered the idea that one could buy and sell reputation information about other characters. This would allow a character's reputation to cross from one social sphere to another. Your reputation may, in fact, precede you.

Reputation extends to social organizations as well. Chartered companies, settlements and player nations also have reputations, and those reputations are affected by the actions of their components, be they social organizations or individual characters. So what you do reflects not only on yourself, but on your associates.
En gros, les amis de tes amis seront tes amis, et les ennemis de tes amis seront tes ennemis et tu les reconnaîtra aisément!


L'alignement :

Citation :
In the real world, there's no absolute definition of good or evil or law or chaos, and everyone subjectively forms their own opinion of other people's ethics and morality. Two people could have very different opinions about a third person. In the world of Pathfinder, this is not the case. Alignment is a universal constant—an absolute framework within which every sentient creature is embedded. Two people can use magic to determine the alignment position of a third and they'll both get the same information.

Alignment in the Pathfinder world is also a descriptor. Things don't just act in good or evil ways; they are good or evil. And when a person uses something which is strongly aligned, that person is engaging in an act which is definitively aligned as well. The whole "ends justify the means" thing doesn't apply in Pathfinder.
L'alignement sera un indice très précis des actes de chaque personne, il n'y aura pas de subjectivité.

l'économie : Le système de contrats et de mise à prix :
chaque "quête" sera donnée sous forme de contrats, que cela proviennes de pnj ou de pj, et qu'il sagisse de craft ou de combat. une personne "tuée" pourra créer un contrat sur la tête de son "tueur".

Citation :
Escrow, Reputation, Alignment, and the Law

We have four in-game tools at our disposal to build security into player contracts.

Escrow

If you wish to undertake a contract, you may be asked to place a certain amount of valuables into "escrow." An "escrow" account is managed by the system, not by any player. Getting something out of escrow requires that a set of conditions defined in the contract be fulfilled.

Escrow systems assume that enough valuable material can be assessed so that the pain of cheating on the deal is high enough that most people simply won't do it. The risk is that a contract taken in good faith may prove impossible to complete, and the escrow may be forfeit even though the player had no intention to cheat on the deal. Classic examples of this are setting up arrangements to have someone take something to a specific location, which turns out to be a trap. The transport fails, the escrow is forfeit, and the transporter pays whatever associated costs there are for being waylaid.

Reputation

That the person you're taking a contract from is known to be someone who is safe to do business with raises a high bar for folks who want to engage in shenanigans. Your reputation will have a big effect on the price paid for hiring services—the worse your rep—or the absence of a rep—the higher the price people will demand for taking the risk of dealing with you. And without a decent rep, many people won't deal with you at all.

Alignment

Violating the terms of contracts is a fundamentally chaotic act. Doing so repeatedly will have effects on character's alignments. Alignments have meaningful consequences that affect the way characters interact with the world and the way the world interacts with them. The availability of some services, especially those related to the intervention of divine beings, will be keyed to alignment. And you can expect that players will form opinions of who your character is and based on alignment. Someone who has become chaotic evil is going to have a hard time hiring others to perform various tasks, and that character is likely to find it hard to get work from those who need a reliable and trustworthy hireling.

The Long Arm of the Law

Breaking certain kinds of contracts can flag a character as a criminal. Criminals will have a hard time finding anyone to offer or accept a contract—there's no honor among thieves... or murderers.

NPC settlements have an automatic mechanism for enforcing law in the River Kingdoms. Criminals will be ruthlessly pursued and killed when they commit criminal acts in areas under NPC settlement security. Player settlements will likely want to create their own enforcement systems: player characters specifically developed to track, engage, and destroy criminals. These PC enforcement agents will have to evolve over time and will be less efficient than automatic systems, but they'll still be a credible threat, and the more organized a settlement becomes, the bigger that threat will be.

The Mechanics of Contracts

Not all characters can offer or accept a given type of contract. Engaging in some contracts may require skill training, merit badges, and specific character abilities.

Contracts are transparent to all parties. When a contract is offered, all the terms of that contract are set and made visible to anyone who can accept the contract. When you take on a contract, you're doing so with full advance knowledge of the terms you're agreeing to. Once made, contracts cannot be changed.

Some contracts are offered from one character directly to another, usually when those characters are in the same area. Other contracts may be posted on centralized notice boards, and will be visible when a character visits the location of that board.

The person who issues a contract has several options that determine who can accept it. It can name a specific character, a chartered company, a settlement, or a kingdom. Further restrictions can be imposed: required or prohibited alignments, required or prohibited races, required or prohibited archetypes, etc.

Contracts cannot be available forever; they have a limited duration when they're available to be accepted. This will keep the contract system from becoming glutted with old, forgotten contracts.

Contracts are always in one of several status types:

Open: The contract has been offered but has not been accepted
Expired: The contract has been offered but was not accepted before it expired
Accepted: The contract has been offered and accepted but has not been completed
Overdue: The contract has been offered and accepted but the time frame specified in the terms has expired
Abandoned: The contract has been offered and accepted but was subsequently abandoned
Closed: The contract has been offered and accepted and has been completed
You'll be able to see all the contracts you've offered and/or accepted, and their current status, at any time.

Types of Contracts

We're currently envisioning several different contract types:

Assassination Contract

The accepting party agrees to kill a target player character. Can be accepted by more than one party. No time limit to complete. No cost for abandoning the contract. The amount offered for the assassination is placed in escrow on creation of the contract. Completing this contract is a criminal, evil act that will result in an alignment shift. The contract automatically closes on completion.

Assassinations themselves require a whole dev blog to discuss, and most of the ideas we have for them are still very formative.

Auction Contract

Auctions have their own special systems. We'll write more about the way markets and auctions will work in an upcoming dev blog.

Bounty Contract

The accepting party agrees to kill a target murderer. Can be accepted by multiple parties. No time limit to complete. No cost for abandoning the contract. A bounty contract is automatically completed when the target of a bounty is killed. The bounty amount is placed in escrow on creation of the contract. These contracts can only be created after a character has been murdered. Automatically closes if the murderer is killed, though the bounty may be renewed.

This is the mechanical expression of the idea of the bounty discussed in the dev blog To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms.

Guard Contract

The accepting party agrees to be logged in and present at a designated location during a specified time frame. Can be accepted by multiple parties, up to a limit specified by the terms. Abandonment of the contract or failure to fulfill the terms forfeits an amount of coin held in escrow as defined by the contract. The party offering the contract specifies an account to fund the contract when the contract is created. The agreed fee for the guard is placed in escrow each time the contract is accepted. If the fee cannot be put in escrow, the contract cannot be accepted. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.

Loan Contract

On acceptance, an amount of coin, as described in the contract, is transferred from the offering party to the accepting party. The accepting party agrees to transfer another specified amount of coin to the offering party within a specified time frame. Can only be accepted by one party. The coin to be loaned is placed in escrow on creation of the contract. The contract can also specify a manifest of collateral items which must be provided by the accepting party and which are placed in escrow on acceptance. If the contract is abandoned or terminated by the accepting party, characters in the accepting party will gain a 30-day criminal flag, any items in escrow will be transferred to the offering party, and the alignment of characters in the accepting party will shift towards chaotic. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.

In practice, the difference between the amount offered and the amount repaid is the effective interest on the loan.

Purchase Contract

The accepting party agrees to sell a designated manifest of gear or other items at a specified price. Can only be accepted by one party. Completes automatically on acceptance. Cannot be accepted unless the items on the manifest are immediately available to meet the contract terms. Delivery is at a location specified in the terms. The purchase price is placed in escrow on creation of the contract. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.

Sale Contract

The accepting party agrees to buy a designated manifest of gear or other items. Can only be accepted by one party. Completes automatically on acceptance. Cannot be accepted unless funds are immediately available to meet the contract terms. Delivery is at a location specified in the terms. The items in the manifest are placed in escrow on creation of the contract. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.

Transportation Contract

The accepting party agrees to move a designated manifest from one location to another location within a specific time frame. Can only be accepted by one party. Abandonment of the contract or failure to fulfill the terms forfeits an amount of coin held in escrow as defined by the contract. The items on the manifest are placed in escrow on creation of the contract and are delivered to the storage of the accepting party on acceptance of the contract at the defined location.

In Closing

We expect that characters will be constantly offering and accepting contracts, and that they'll be the mechanism by which a lot of player interaction happens. Ideally, most of the commercial, diplomatic, and adventuring activities in the game will develop through player-to-player contracting. If somebody offers you a reward for bringing them 10 rat tails, it will be because another player needs 10 rat tails for some reason, not just because an NPC has an exclamation point bobbing over his head. We think that will make questing much more meaningful and interesting to everyone.

Les transports :
Citation :
You can't use fast travel if you've been flagged as a criminal.
Une fois flaggé, tu ne pourra pas allez n'importe où instantanément.


Pour résumé, l'anti-grieffing en tant que tel est une chose extrèmement compliqué à mettre en place et demande une longue reflexion en rapport avec le gamedesign en lui-même. on aborde pas cette question une fois le jeu terminé.

L'intégralité : ici

Dernière modification par lujan ; 10/09/2012 à 14h56.
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Nauth
Alpha & Oméga
 
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Citation :
Publié par nepser
Si tu es cloné directement, en quoi se faire PK est-il handicapant?
Si ce n'est pas pénalisant, pourquoi vouloir pénaliser les PK?

Si tu veux pénaliser les PK à juste rétribution: si on considère qu'il faut 30 secondes pour revivre dans un clone et retrouver une activité normale; un PK accumule cette dette pour chaque meurtre et devra attendre 30s fois le nombre de kill "pénalisant".
Ou plus simplement, donner le choix au PK d'achever le joueur ou non, sachant que l'achever le fais revenir au point de sauvegarde (le "spawn" de clone), et le laisser en vie le laisse à terre pendant X secondes.
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nepser
Dauphin
 
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Citation :
Publié par Nauth
Ou plus simplement, donner le choix au PK d'achever le joueur ou non, sachant que l'achever le fais revenir au point de sauvegarde (le "spawn" de clone), et le laisser en vie le laisse à terre pendant X secondes.
Ca n'empêche pas que tu emmerdes le joueur pendant x secondes!
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