Concept de gameplay

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[intro]Bon je poste ça là directe en anglais pour pas avoir à retraduire, et je voulais avoir des avis sur le fait de poster ça ou non sur le forum CU. [\intro]

Here are some ideas to create a deep and of boundless skill gameplay. How can I pretend to have ideas to achieve that ? Well, it's simple, by taking inspiration from games that already did it. I'm thinking about fighting games (Think Soulcalibur, Virtua Fighter), but other MMOs made attempts to include some of the mechanics I'm going to describe (Tera, Guild Wars 2, etc), even MOBAs (Smite), the closes thing might be Chivalry though.

The goal is to keep possibilities for all sides to outplay their opponent, either in 1v1 or in larger battles. So that even if you have a theorical advantage against your opponent, if he guess too much of your moves your doomed. It's my wish, so only a personnal opinion, that a really well played naked character can win against a fully stuffed one if he outplays him hard. In most game it's impossible because they are things unavoidable, or just absurdly large AOEs to enable it.


Now imagine, you're a group of competent and coordinated players, largely outnumbered by unorganized ones. Some would say that the good old time of aoe mezz was the way. But what if you could just outskill them purely and simply ?


That's the goal of my proposition.

First things first a summary of the things I'm gonna cover:

  1. The basic idea of a fighting game inspired gameplay
  2. Of the importance of mobility
  3. The consequences with some scenarios
  4. A new way to see critical hits
  5. Some scenarios
  6. Class differenciation consequences
  7. On a larger scale
[titre]Basics[\titre]


To achieve this I choose the fighting game model that I know the best, there are others, I don't doubt they are good too.

How to achieve that are you gonna ask ? It's quite simple in terms of mechanics, but the implications are deep.

The system I'm describing, use startup, active and recover frames on moves. Hitboxes, so that moves hit depending on where you aim rather than everywhere till you targeted your opponent. I'm going to lightly describe so possibilities, not a full and complexe system to give you the feeling of the thing.

When you do something you commit to it, that's the basis. No longer think of skills like instant with a GCD in the middle of which you can do whatever you want.
Each move as a startup time, kinda like the cast time of a spell, then an active time when your move (be it a spell or a thrust of your favorite axe) actually hits, finally a recover time, the moment you go back to neutral. The startup and recover are why things get interesting. You miss your move, you get predicted, you take damage.

Pièce jointe 238074

But there is a need for an other option, if you can only hack at your opponent it wouldn't be very interesting. Both player would spam at one another and the luckier/better equipped will win. There is a need for another mechanic.

Hitstun, when you hit something or someone you have a time in the middle of which you can't act, you and your opponent. That's why both player can't spam relentlessly their attacks. The first one that hits, force the opponent to take the hit, without being able to retaliate. Only when a player has recovered from hitting or being hit can he act again.

So you can play the hit and run game, but that would also be a bit limited. That's why you have the option to block, or parry. With a shield you can block moves, with a blade deflect those, etc. Here comes the momentum. If your opponent block your move, he recovers faster than you. Then you lose the momentum. This make you forced to react or predict what your opponent is gonna do. Why ? Since they recover before you, it is gonna act as if the startup of all the moves of your opponent was reduced. So if you gonna try to do a move, well you'll end up taking a hit even before being able to enter your active frames. And if you get it, guess what ? Your opponent keeps the momentum, forcing you to be even more defensive.

However if you guess which move your opponent is gonna do, you can simply move avoid it, hit and punish your opponent for it.

[titre]Mobility[\titre]

If dashs, rolls etc have been quite common in MMOs these past few years there always been a fundamental difference with fighting games. In a fighting game if your roll is guessed, basically you're either dead or take a tons of damage.

Every player of GW2 can vouch on this, slow startup spell (Like Hammer warrior aoe stun) where a pain in the ass because people where rolling everywhere. Even if you knew they where gonna roll, the directions, speed, and invulnerability without any kind of recover made those spells useless.

Having the possibility to replace yourself with some invulnerability is interesting. It make for mindgames opportunities, give a universal "OH S***" button etc. But being punishable for it is even more interesting, because it makes it a risky option. And if your opponent waits for it to punish you, for example, and you just hit you can get momentum back.

Rather than rolls, I'd prefer jumps to take this effect. Back jumping is a coherent way to retreat, but you end up destabilized. Thus you have a recover. Jumping forward can be a greedy and bold way to engage a fight, either kill on the first strike, or be open for a fatal retaliation. Finally jumping on the side can be a good way to avoid spears thrusts, even if I wouldn't dare to try it against a axe horizontal slash.

What if by an excellent read I dodge the 2 handed sword thrust from my opponent and can land a hit from close with my dagger ? Since my opponent is heavily armored hiting him usually would only lend him a scratch on his pristine plate. However since my opponent is heavily destabilized I can take the time to aim at a weak spot and land a critical hit.

[titre]Critical hits[\titre]

Most people have a love/hate relationship with criticals. Either because it ends up as a broken mechanic, or because of the fights won on sheer luck.

Well here most of the random is removed. You can land critical only if your opponent is open, either because he missed a move, or you went slice is back while he was focused on something else.

This make backstab highly effective for dedicated classes. We can imagine dagger by example have a really high crit damage multiplier, where a 2H sword will have naught (Try to aim an tiny armor opening with a 3kg chunk of iron) but higher base damage, classic.

Here we were talking about hitting in the recover, but what about the startup ? Well I do think that if you heavily outweight your opponent with your weapon you should be able to force your hit through, even though you would take your opponent damage.

[titre]Scenarios[\titre]

Our cuning rogue with his dagger would have no chance against our proud knight in armor in a front. By using his brain, and the fact that the warrior will underestimate the threat, he will be able to land a hit here and there. A knee strike, which on critical will cripple the knight would be a good starting choice. And then the deathblow ? Or he could toy with him, laughing just out of his reach, throwing stones, mock him for the fool he his ... I'm digressing. However that would still be an uphill battle.

Even if he does get the momentum by deflecting his opponent blade he should be prudent before thinking of a strike. The hit he would land would hardly enable him to avoid the next one from the knight. Except if he deflected a heavy strike, that would take more time to recover. However he could faint an attack, urging the knight to strike assured of his victory in a clash. Avoid it and then deal a killing blow.

Another case, a shield and sword warrior against a spearman.

At the beginning of the fight the spearman has a clear advantage. His higher reach, lighter footing enabling him to kite the swordman.

range.png

So things start like this, our swordman is wary knowing his disadvantage, and the spearman ready to pounce.

base.png

A spear is surely very good with the estoc, making it potent against the heavy armor of the swordman. However the slash are poor. Nonetheless, the swordman will keep the spearman on his right, to always have the shield between them, while the spearman will try to do the opposite to have an open front.

matchup.png

Now our swordman will try to close the distance, if he tries to rush forward his shield up, the spearman can slash his legs, knocking him down, or crippling him. Or just outrun him, lighter, he can run both faster and longer. So if the swordman can't corner him, the spearman will poke him to death.
The swordman can also bait a thrust, and profit from the recover and counter attack. By jumping preemptively on a side then running he can get a fast hit. The spearman can also try to slash once is spear is extended, to hit the swordman. But if he is on the right side that'll only scratch is shield.

I could do dozen of those, it's just to give you an idea how it becomes quite deep really fast.

[title]Class[\title]

As we have seen earlier, this system can do really distinctive class, each with a unique feeling, depending on your weapon/way. But also the roles will be kinda built-in, as in there'll be only some specific ways to be efficient.

A tank would intercept people trying to rush is favorite mage, with his huge body, he would only aim on staying alive while the mage wrecks havoc unrestrained.

Feeling will be really different if you wear heavy armor, and you'd need more strength to jump longer, more equilibrium/dexterity/other to stabilize faster etc. Making each class archetype having different jumps. Running could be a possibility too.

Mages could be think as helpless at close quarter, but even a staff or a dagger can be deadly as seen earlier. And without any armor their movement possibilities would be hindered only by their lack of practice.

[title]Group Fights[\title]

On organized squads, having spearmen retaliate behind tanks. Fast axemen taking your opponent on the flank to hack endlessly on a defenseless side. Or simply a healer being stabbed while his meat shield is distracted are all valid tactics which emerge naturally.

On most MMOs being grouped is as good (aoe heal/buff) as it is bad (aoe cc/dmg). Here it's more how the grouping is done, a few tanks in steps backed up by a healer (Warhammer players, does it ring a bell?) can last a long time even against dozens of opponents.

That also means that unorganized players will obstruct themselves (In the case of friendly fire it's worse) rendering their assault potentially totally ineffective as long as the little organized group choose the fight place wisely (Why did we build forts in first instance if not for this ?).

If you want a peak of this kind of gameplay, I can only recommend you to look at chivalry (Even though an excellent game it has lots of faults).
SAlut Sharnt !

Et bien, tu en expliques des choses sur ta vision du gameplay qui te trotte dans la tête ! C'est très bien expliqué et je n'ai rien à dire dessus. Je vois totalement comment se passent tes phases de combat et je serai intéressé de le tester ! Donc, pour ma part, tu peux largement le poster sur le forum officiel (que tu aurais dut le faire directement, sans passer par ici).

Par contre, attend toi à te faire piquer de tous les côtés par certains, qui n'aiment pas trop devoir bouger par eux-même lors des phases de combat et se passer d'un système à % random sur les actions défensives... chacun ses goûts !

p.s : les illustrations, c'est de ta plume ou d'un autre jeu ? (attention au copyrights! )
Citation :
Publié par ouliane
Par contre, attend toi à te faire piquer de tous les côtés par certains, qui n'aiment pas trop devoir bouger par eux-même lors des phases de combat et se passer d'un système à % random sur les actions défensives... chacun ses goûts !
Personnellement, le système de combat baser sur les déplacements, comme avait le faucheur, j'adorais ça, car ça donnait vraiment une immersion plus profonde et ça agrandissait le gameplay.

Pure Skill

J'aime bien ton conecpt Sharnt
Citation :
Publié par eik0nn
Personnellement, le système de combat baser sur les déplacements, comme avait le faucheur, j'adorais ça, car ça donnait vraiment une immersion plus profonde et ça agrandissait le gameplay.

Pure Skill

J'aime bien ton conecpt Sharnt
J'avoue ne pas avoir lu car en anglais, mais perso moi j'aimais les styles positionnels, et pas particulièrement les déplacements.

A partir du moment ou on se base sur du déplacement, on a droit direct aux straff et aux jesautepartoutcommeunlapincommecatumetouchesjamaistrololol.
Faut pas oublier ce que répète régulièrement MJ. Le jeu ne sera pas basé sur la vitesse comme un GW2 ou autre, pour laisser le temps aux joueurs d'analyser ce que fait l'adversaire, que ce soit pour interrupt ou faire des combo magiques.

Après j'attends pas mal cet aspect du gameplay car ça me paraît important qu'on ait, à la fois un jeu technique mais pas trop "lent".
On le voit bien avec le coté "full" incantation pour les lanceurs de sorts et les positionnels voulus par MJ.
Le tout va être de voir comment mêler tout ça sans avoir une impression de lenteur chiante et d'un autre age (personne ne rejouerait à Daoc maintenant vu son gameplay lent de l'époque, en étant réaliste)

Mais le pari d'un jeu old school avec des ingrédients très techniques qui rendent le gameplay riche, sans être vieillot, me plais beaucoup. A voir si ils vont transformer l'essai ou pas.
Citation :
Publié par Helgall
A partir du moment ou on se base sur du déplacement, on a droit direct aux straff et aux jesautepartoutcommeunlapincommecatumetouchesjamaistrololol.
Dans ce que je propose, si tout est basé sur les déplacements, c'est car mal se déplacer est très rapidement mortel.
Citation :
Publié par Typhus
Honnetement un gameplay lent comme celui de DAoC est effectivement d'un autre âge, et c'est pas l'idéal, mais c'est quand même supérieur au gameplay d'épileptiques actuel ^^
tout le monde fait référence au gameplay de daoc, mais personne à celui de warhammer online qui pour moi et pas mal de gens de la communauté RVR a été un bon jeu niveau combats.
s'il a été critiqué et est mort pour beaucoup de raisons, il l'a largement moins été à cause des combats, que j'ai trouvés largement plus dynamiques que daoc avec son "stick face"

Dernière modification par zac ; 05/01/2015 à 08h35.
J'avais adoré aussi warhammer, malgré tout les trucs non tenus.

Mais daoc reste pour moi un des meilleurs point de vue combat grâce aux skills positionnels et réactionnels.
Avoir un truc rapide c’est joli à voir, mais point de vue gameplay c'est pas toujours top point de vue lisibilité.
Citation :
Publié par Aiscence
[URL="https://camelotunchained.wiki.jeuxonline.info/wiki/[url=https://camelotunchained.wiki.jeuxonline.info/wiki/Combat]Combat[/url]"]
Avoir un truc rapide c’est joli à voir, mais point de vue gameplay c'est pas toujours top point de vue lisibilité.
C'est à cause de ça aussi que beaucoup ne jouent presque plus qu'avec des macros pour balancer 3 skills dans la seconde, les moins jeunes peuvent plus suivre sans !
Une autre idée que je pensais proposer est un équivalent du "slow time" de Eve Online. Quand il y a trop de joueurs dans une zone pour le serveur, le temps ralenti. Ca renforce (imo) pas mal le côté épique, permet de faire des actions mieux coordonnées, rend le jeu moins fouilli, est complètement stylé et contourne un des problèmes majeurs des MMOs

Sinon oui j'ai plutôt aimé War pour le très peu que j'ai pu y jouer (Les quêtes chiantes comme la pluie j'en pouvais plus).

Citation :
Publié par Jiyujinkaii
Moi, tant que l'on ressent l'impact des coups, une certaine dynamique et de la nervosité, je suis de la partie ^^
Le hitstun est justement une mécanique qui permet de ressentir énormément les impacts, car ça 'stop' ton action et tu as le temps de voir le coup toucher.
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